Rilina ([info]rilina) wrote,
@ 2004-08-30 20:08:00
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Current music:U2 - "Ultraviolet (Light My Way)"
Entry tags:books, feminism, religion

Ephesians 5; Something Rotten
I wanted to post at length on Ephesians 5:21-33 (which, in Rilina-land, is known as "The passage of scripture that will not be read at my wedding, if I should ever get married"), but the entire passage has given me enough of a headache that you're getting the short version.

Briefly: My pastor has been doing a series on Ephesians, including six weeks on the infamous passage noted above which talks about such pleasant things as male headship and female submission in marriage.

For five weeks, I listened with an open heart. Many of the things that he said about marriage seemed very wise. But the whole time he was avoiding the gender issues, and in week 6, he finally tackled 'em. That's where he lost me. Because my pastor decided to argue that each gender has "particular gifts" - the stereotypical ones. You know, men as leaders, and women as helpers and relationship-builders. Blah blah blah.

Anyway, I ended up sending him a long email with my reaction to his sermon. I asked him if he was suggesting that gender is our destiny. That all women must be one way and all men must be another way? Because while I'd agree that what he said is true as a general tendency (especially in a patriarchal culture that encourages men and women to act in those ways from birth!), it isn't true about all men and all women. So why should all marriages be held to one rubric--men leading, women submitting--when plenty of women have gifts of leadership and plenty of men have gifts of helping? It's like sticking square pegs into round holes, and that doesn't seem characteristic of a God who embraces outsiders and outcasts--and what else will men-helpers and women-leaders become in the world my pastor describes where women have to be womanly women and men have to be manly men?

Full disclosure: It doesn't help that this whole "particular gifts" malarkey is not a particularly happy theology of gender for someone like yours truly, who is quite conspicuously lacking in what my pastor would consider traditional female gifts

In his defense, my pastor did say some good things about redeeming the idea of "submitting" and "helping"--on how Christ submitted himself, not thinking of his own rights, to the will of the Father and the power of being a helper or assistant in God's work. And he did take some care to emphasize women's equality with men before God. But that all rang false when he went on to essentially belittle women's concerns about being oppressed in his next sentence. Typical male.

(On a side note, Camassia wrote astutely a while back on the subject of how imitating Christ's humility should not prevent women from asserting their equality.)

(Yes, this really was the short version. You should have seen the email.)

* * *

I finished reading Jasper Fforde's Something Rotten (2004) last night. As expected, it was good for lots of laughs. I was particularly amused by Friday's speaking of Loren Ipsum. And I was tickled to discover that Fforde shares my opinion of the merits (or lack thereof) of The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser.

You know, I do believe that I'm becoming a more careful reader than I have been in the past. I've often enjoyed novels because I can be willfully dense while reading, which allows me to be surprised at the Big Twists. (This is especially useful when reading mysteries.) But these days, I find that I've become much better at predicting twists a few chapters off. That was the case at the climax of Something Rotten, though there was (in Fforde's defense) another shocker that left me, um, properly shocked. Of course, the groundwork for that twist was laid in previous novels, which I read very quickly in some Barnes and Noble in the greater Boston area.

The ending of this novel would have marked a good end to the series, but it seems like there's (at least) one more Thursday Next novel due.



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[info]qiihoskeh
2004-08-30 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Typical male? I don't think so. I would suggest that the problem is in the attachment to traditional religion and relying on "authority" (I was going to say Biblical in particular, but this problem isn't really confined to the Judeo-Christian world). At least you, unlike the Pastor, aren't committed to a career dependent on a specific religion.

On another note, I've only read the first Next novel (the next Next novel not being readily available the last time I visited a library), but I must say FForde really understood _Jane Eyre_.

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[info]rilina
2004-08-31 04:54 am UTC (link)
No, I'm committed to life dependent on a specific religion. That's a much bigger deal than a career.

I may disagree with my pastor on quite a few topics (mostly involving women in the church), but he's not a bad guy. Far from it. And I would never suggest that his teaching at the pulpit was the result of some careerism on his part. If he saw the ministry as a way to "get ahead" in life, he would be serving at a wealthier church: in fact, earlier in his career, he left that sort of church to come start the one that I currently attend. And if he was really just interested in power or getting ahead, he would have never gone into ministry in the first place. He's an intelligent man with an Ivy-league education; he had plenty of other options in life. My (admittedly juvenile) "typical male" comment is more a reference to the fact that it often seems that, as a man, he has certain blind spots on issues of gender that become painfully obvious during some sermons.

And though I disagree with my pastor, I don't feel like that's a grounds for completely rejecting religion or authority. That sounds an awful lot like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

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May I ask a question?
[info]kizmet_42
2004-08-31 05:04 am UTC (link)
I've been reading a great deal about the issue of feminism in the church in the past month and I'm curious to know what you think about the concept of covering your head in church.

Do you do so? Do any women in your church do so? Why or why not?

Kizmet

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Re: May I ask a question?
[info]rj_anderson
2004-08-31 06:36 am UTC (link)
Do you [cover your head in church]? Do any women in your church do so?

Ooh! I do! I do! Ask me!!! *bounces up and down and raises hand*

[info]rilina, you may be interested in a discussion I had with my husband and another man (a church elder) last weekend. Said elder expressed the opinion that the reason God has asked men in general to take leadership roles in the church is not because men are "better" at it, but in fact quite the opposite -- because *women* on the whole are naturally better at public speaking and organization than men are.

The elder went on to remark that in his experience both within and outside of the church, when you have a "co-ed" leadership it very quickly turns into an all-female leadership -- not because the women are being pushy and domineering, but because most men can easily see that the women do a better job than they can, and therefore back off and let the women take over. This results in the women being overworked and frustrated, while the men just sit idle and let their spiritual gifts go undeveloped.

I myself have seen this phenomenon firsthand when visiting other churches, and I've even seen whole denominations go from mostly male-led to mixed to almost completely female-led within a couple of decades (to wit, the United Church of Canada). I think that the majority of males will sit idle in the pews once they see that there are women who can do the work better.

Considering that we have a God who chooses the weak things to shame the strong, and who (among other things) sent Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles when all human logic and experience would have done it the other way around, is it possible that this is one of the reasons (though not the sole reason, certainly) that the NT exhorts men to take the place of public leadership and teaching and for women (who are far more naturally gifted with words) to remain silent?

When I was in Bible school, I was Hermione -- always sticking my hand up to give the right answer or ask a leading question or make a comment. I enjoyed myself thoroughly and my teachers seemed to enjoy the discussion as well. But I noticed after a while that by actively participating in this manner, I had completely intimidated all my male classmates into silence. It wasn't until I forced myself to sit back and swallow my remarks for a while that they began participating again, and (I think), really learning from the class in a way they hadn't been able to before.

I am fairly certain that I could do a decent job of delivering a sermon to a whole congregation, and I've done enough speaking to women's groups that I know I would enjoy it. But on the other hand, by keeping silent even when my own natural gifts and inclinations would prompt otherwise, I know that I am giving my brothers in Christ a needed opportunity and impetus to develop their own spiritual gifts. Plus, I think of myself as having a unique opportunity to represent and identify with Christ, who willingly submitted Himself to the Father's authority, even though He was fully equal with Him in all respects. I know I am equal to my brothers in Christ, both in spiritual privilege and in gifts; but I also believe that God has instituted His order of authority for a reason, and that obeying Him in this area will bring blessing and spiritual growth to everyone involved, not just to me personally.

Mind you, I do think that the NT teaching on gender roles on the church is best understood and practiced in a church where the priesthood of all believers, not just a select and professionally trained clergy, is exercised on a weekly basis. For my part, I know that when I sit in the Breaking of Bread service that I am just as responsible to worship and glorify the Lord in my heart and in my prayers, and so exercise my priestly ministry before Him, as any of my brothers who voice their thoughts and prayers audibly. I've heard many men say that they believe the silent prayers of the women set the tone for the whole service, and I've seen evidence of that myself. And that helps makes the pill of submission a lot less bitter to swallow.

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[info]qiihoskeh
2004-09-13 11:07 am UTC (link)
You said And I would never suggest that his teaching at the pulpit was the result of some careerism on his part.

I didn't intend to suggest that -- pretty much the opposite. Well, if you don't understand me I probably shouldn't try to say any more.

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[info]thistwistedfate
2004-08-31 04:31 pm UTC (link)
Everytime they read Ephesians 5 in church, I gag. Especially at weddings. After the intial gagging, I ignore it, as I do so many other passages that I feel are stupid---like a lot of Leviticus, for example.

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